Wie soll man sehen an das Wort / Glyph dass es sich um Mädchen handelt? Warum nicht nur "Ballspiel"?
Diese Szene mit Beischrift jmD ist (anscheinend) der einzige Beleg für das Wort. Im Zettelkasten steht dazu: (einmal Mittleres Reich, als Name eines Ballspieles?)
Der zweite Zettel beschreibt die Szene im Grab des Kheti (Cheti), Beni Hassan, Grab Nr. 17), mit Darstellungen des täglichen Lebens: BILD
Zitat Seschen: Im Zettelkasten steht dazu: (einmal Mittleres Reich, als Name eines Ballspieles?) Ich sehe ihre gelbe "?" Er weiß es also nicht sicher. Mehr ein Vermutung...
Im Jahre 6007 wird das dann vielleicht: Im Zettelkasten steht dazu: (zweimal Deutsche Stadt + Zahlen, als Name eines Ballspieles?)
Zitat Seschen: Der zweite Zettel beschreibt die Szene im Grab des Kheti (Cheti), Beni Hassan, Grab Nr. 17), mit Darstellungen des täglichen Lebens: BILD Ein paar Anmerkungen zu diesem Grab: Tomb of Kheti (tomb 17) und Tomb of Kheti
Danke. Ich hätte schon selbst viele Stunden gesucht auf Internet weil es verschiedene varianten auf die "Jongliere-Abbildung" gab via Google. Also fragte ich mir ab welche die richtige war. (Zitat Seschen: Diese Szene mit Beischrift jmD ist (anscheinend) der einzige Beleg für das Wort. Das dachte ich... Warum "j" ? und nicht "I"m(i) wie soviel Wörter anfangen mit dieselbe Hieroglyphen? Original hat er "i"md geschrieben.
http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Femalepriests.html : The Middle Kingdom: It seems that not very much is known from this period, more than that women were still essential for the musical troupe, the wrt-hnr. Some of these held the title of Chantress, smt. There are also three stelae recognizing the difference between female and male musicians and singers.
hnr (Hener) - These were the temple musicians and dancers. While the majority of these were women, men also participated in the Hener troupe (Lesko 1999.245). They were lead by a Weret Hener (wrt-hnr), a priestess of high rank (Robins 1993.148-149). Music and dancing were performed to promote fertility and rebirth, as such the Hener participated in almost all ceremonies from festivals to funerals (Pinch 1993.213).
http://www.juggling.org/jw/86/2/egypt.html : Six anthropologists have written extensively on the subject of ball play in ancient Egypt. Their interpretations which the case for both spiritual and athletic interpretation of the juggling on the tomb wall. C.E. Devries, R.W. Henderson and S. Mender favor the ritual interpretation. They draw an analogy to Osiris and Isis, and believe the round objects may represent seeds juggled as Order over Chaos, guaranteeing fertile soil and good crop harvests (represented in the fourth register). Weaving could represent order from the crops. The second register finishes with sculpture, possibly relating to a fertility deity.
Aigner and E. Mehl argue that since jugglers weren't represented on a very large scale, and since it was represented as practiced by youth in the early and middle periods, and since there is no legible writing above the figures, it was more possibly just a gymnastic exercise popular in the same sense as playing jacks today. The sixth anthropologist is Wolfgang Decker. He has written two books on the subject, one of which cities the possibility of both views.
http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/sexuality.htmlItinerant Performers and 'Prostitutes' Another idea, pointed out to me by Daniel Kolos, an Egyptologist academically trained at the University of Toronto, is that this premarital sexual activity might be a prerequisite for marriage. One of the theories that disassociates these women from being prostitutes, is that their sexual activity could be part of a "coming-of-age ritual", just as circumcision was one for males. With Egypt's heavy emphasis on fertility as the defining nature of a man or a woman, this idea is a highly likely probability.
Other theories could be that the young virgin girls joined itinerant performing groups - dancers, singers and the like - and during their time with these groups they experienced their first sexual encounters. If a girl became pregnant, she would probably leave the troupe to head home to her family with proof of her fertility. (Motherhood was venerated, giving a woman a much higher status in society, so pregnancy was something to be proud of in ancient Egypt.)
It seems that these female performers, these 'prostitutes', were treated with courtesy and respect, and there seemed to be a well established link between these travelling performers and fertility, childbirth, religion and magic.
Gruß, Jan
Janwind Gast - Themenstarter
Re: Frage Übersetzung
« Antwort #5, Datum: 24.02.2007 um 03:36:46 »
Zitat Seschen: Warum sollte man das Wort rückwärts lesen, um eine Ähnlichkeit in einer anderen Sprache zu finden Die Leserichtung der Hieroglyphen ist eindeutig.
Rechts links / links rechts ? (aber ich sehe die Eule gucken... ) Und "Djinni" oder etwas dass so lautet ist keine fremde Sprache dachte ich...
http://www.pyramidtexts.com/utterance294.htmSaid (in the Antechamber facing East) is the solitary Word, so that such a (consciousness of) Second Sight will Un-is be, which levitates in the Nile acacia, which levitates in the Nile acacia, for which there is commanded, "Guard your (Star) self, O lion;" for which the command levitates, (of) "Guard your (Star) self, O lion." It is because Un-is has levitated in his Djinni-bottle and it is because he has tranced in his Djinni-bottle, that Un-is will appear in glory in the morning. (Djinni = djenit)
http://www.shira.net/egypt-goddess.htmAs the sun god Ra grew older, he became fearful of his enemies and asked Hathor to help him. She took on the job with a vengeance and turned into Sekhmet, the lioness goddess, and seemed to enjoy the killing. Ra then worried that she would wipe out the entire human race, so he had red dye mixed in ale and spread about the land. Hathor, thinking it was blood, drank it and became so intoxicated that she forgot her assignment and humankind was saved. Pacified by the beer, she resumed her persona as the beautiful Hathor and returned to Ra.
http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Femalepriests.html : The Middle Kingdom: It seems that not very much is known from this period, more than that women were still essential for the musical troupe, the wrt-hnr. Some of these held the title of Chantress, smt. There are also three stelae recognizing the difference between female and male musicians and singers.
http://www.juggling.org/jw/86/2/egypt.html : According to Dr. Bianchi, "In tomb 15, the prince is looking on to things he enjoyed in life that he wishes to take to the next world. The fact that jugglers are represented in a tomb suggests religious significance. There is an analogy between balls and circular mirrors, as round things were used to represent solar objects, birth and death."
Ms. Diane Guzman, Brooklyn Museum librarian, said even the most mundane events in ancient Egypt were performed ritually -- another point in favor of the spiritualists.
Six anthropologists have written extensively on the subject of ball play in ancient Egypt. Their interpretations which the case for both spiritual and athletic interpretation of the juggling on the tomb wall. C.E. Devries, R.W. Henderson and S. Mender favor the ritual interpretation. They draw an analogy to Osiris and Isis, and believe the round objects may represent seeds juggled as Order over Chaos, guaranteeing fertile soil and good crop harvests (represented in the fourth register). Weaving could represent order from the crops. The second register finishes with sculpture, possibly relating to a fertility deity.
Aigner and E. Mehl argue that since jugglers weren't represented on a very large scale, and since it was represented as practiced by youth in the early and middle periods, and since there is no legible writing above the figures, it was more possibly just a gymnastic exercise popular in the same sense as playing jacks today. The sixth anthropologist is Wolfgang Decker. He has written two books on the subject, one of which cities the possibility of both views.
hnr (Hener) - These were the temple musicians and dancers. While the majority of these were women, men also participated in the Hener troupe (Lesko 1999.245). They were lead by a Weret Hener (wrt-hnr), a priestess of high rank (Robins 1993.148-149). Music and dancing were performed to promote fertility and rebirth, as such the Hener participated in almost all ceremonies from festivals to funerals (Pinch 1993.213).
http://www.horemheb.com/sexuality.htmlIn this essay I propose a specific social theory: that young girls left their 'household' soon after their first blood in order to serve Hathor, the fertility goddess, become pregnant and give birth, thereby proving that they were healthy and marriageable. The practice was socially condoned life-and-death initiation ritual for all young girls of every social status, not wanton sexuality. Those who passed the test of giving birth to a healthy baby and staying alive themselves, returned home to get married.
Which women participated in the festivals and how? Young pubescent girls, according to the pictorial evidence, joined itinerant groups of musicians/dancers/singers who went from one town to the next from one local festival to another, presumably to provide the entertainment. The itinerant groups would consist of commoners.
The girls provide an ongoing entertainment of acrobatics, dances, games, music and singing. The entertainment becomes heightened as the beer or wine intoxicate both players and festival goers, and chances are that hallucinogenic plants have also been mixed into either the food or the drinks. The priests declare the fertility prowess of their local deity, and the men and boys of the village begin to lure or chase the musicians, dancers and singers and, in their mutually aroused state, will engage them sexually according to local custom. Everyone sleeps off the effects of the festival wherever they laid their heads down, and begin the clean-up at sunrise.
Er weiß es also nicht sicher. Mehr ein Vermutung...
Ich nehme mal an, dass bei der Entzifferung der Hieroglyphen und bei der Überetzung Vermutung und die anschließende Bestätigung dieser durch weitere Belege der einzig mögliche Weg zum Erfolg waren. Wenn, wie hier, eine Schreibung nur einmal belegt ist, kann keine Bestätigung durch Vergleich mit anderen Texten erfolgen. Es bleibt also ein kleineres oder größeres Fragezeichen stehen. (Dazu fällt mir jetzt noch ein bisher nicht übersetztes Wort ein: jAa - Verbum vom Behandeln der Kälber, Wb I S. 27) Zitat:
Warum "j" ? und nicht "I"m(i) wie soviel Wörter anfangen mit dieselbe Hieroglyphen?
Das Zeichen M17 kann mit j oder mit i transkribiert werden, ich persönlich halte mich an die Umschrift im Hannig-Wörterbuch, also j. Zitat:
Rechts links / links rechts ? (aber ich sehe die Eule gucken... )
Ich sehe, dass die Eule (auf deiner Grafik) nach rechts sieht, also ist die Lesung von rechts nach links richtig.
Viele Grüße Seschen
FarmerMaggot Gast
Re: Frage Übersetzung
« Antwort #7, Datum: 17.09.2007 um 12:49:36 »
Moin moin! Bin neu hier (auch wenn ich früher schon mal hier war) und wollte für meine Übersetzungsfrage nicht gleich ein neues Thema auf machen. Ich suche nach einer bestimmten Stelle in Unas Pyramidentexten. Es ist Spruch 273 und ich versuche folgende STelle als Hieroglyphen zu identifizieren:
"400: Unas is he who eats men (rm.tjw), who lives on gods"
die Pyramidentexte gibt's online. Die fragliche Stelle in Hieroglyphen findest Du auf dieser Seite.
Viele Grüße, Michael Tilgner
FarmerMaggot Gast
Re: Frage Übersetzung
« Antwort #9, Datum: 19.09.2007 um 12:03:44 »
Vielen Dank für deine prompte ANtwort. Leider bin ich noch nicht soweit, dass ich die Stelle auf dem Papier so genau identifizieren kann. Werde mich aber mit Begeisterung über die Kurse hier hermachen! Kannst etwas genauer mit dem Finger drauf zeigen... LG, Farmer
Autor/in
)
Werde mich aber mit Begeisterung über die Kurse hier hermachen!
